TRANSCRIPT: RADIO INTERVIEW - RN BREAKFAST - MONDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2019

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO NATIONAL WITH HAMISH MACDONALD
MONDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2019

SUBJECT: Ensuring Integrity legislation, Victorian Labor conference.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Tony Burke is the Shadow Minister for Industrial Relations. Good morning to you.

TONY BURKE: Good morning Hamish.

MACDONALD: You've already said that Labor will not support this legislation under any circumstances. So why should the government be bothering to give you its amendments?

BURKE: Well it's not simply to provide them to us, it's to provide them to the Australian community. If the government's position on the legislation that's in front of the Parliament has now changed and they now want different words to be voted on, the Australian people have an absolute right to know what that new legislation would look like.

MACDONALD: They're negotiating with the crossbenchers, they're obviously sharing the amendments with them, they're working on the amendments with them. Isn't that the proper, right and proper process at this point?

BURKE: No no and I think you'll find the crossbench are supportive of these being released publicly as well but they're the Government's amendments and so only the government has the authority to release them.

MACDONALD: But I mean making out that the Australian public won't know is a bit ridiculous isn't it? We'll see them if it comes to a vote, we'll know what the legislation is.

BURKE: After the event. It's a little bit late for people to be able to point out flaws and errors. I mean you know simple questions like, will the amendments still leave a situation where an entire union can be deregistered for paperwork errors, for some documents getting in late?

MACDONALD: Well on that very point, I mean Rex Patrick who's involved in these negotiations has come on this very program to talk specifically about those matters and he says no they won't. Nobody's going to get pinged for misdemeanours, is his argument, that you're not going to get a union deregistered for some faulty paperwork.

BURKE: Oh well I think that's wrong. And I don't think that accords with what Rex Patrick is saying now. And this is why we need the amendments. Now for one breach of paperwork -

MACDONALD: The point he was making was that it would only occur if it was systematic, if there were different kinds of breaches over a prolonged period of time, if they fell into different categories then they would just remain as breaches.

BURKE: I think you'll find from what the crossbench is saying that if for example two or three breaches came to light at once then the union could in fact be deregistered because of the way the point system would work. And us going back and forth on this Hamish - this is my point. This is why the amendments can't be kept secret because there are significant outcomes here that should be part of the public debate. They shouldn’t only be part of a 10 minute debate, rushed debate in the Senate on a particular clause.

MACDONALD: I'm just unclear as to which bit is secret though because the people involved in this are quite happy to turn up here and discuss it all in public.

BURKE: Well the outtake that you've taken from that interview is quite different from what I've received in conversations with the crossbench. Now if it's important enough for you to want to bring a crossbencher on and to make sure that the listeners to this program are able to know what's being debated in the Senate, and even in this interview on the major issue of, can a union be deregistered on paperwork breaches, we have a difference as to what's in those amendments. That of itself makes the case that these amendments cannot continue to be kept secret. The Australian people do have a right to know what is being planned and if paperwork breaches are going to result in the deregistration of an entire organisation, we have a right to know that. If it will still be the case that if the nurses’ union for example held protests and took industrial action over staff-patient ratios and that could result in the entire nurses’ federation being deregistered that should be part of the public debate. And if the Government was confident of its arguments, they would be allowing these amendments, which apparently have been finished, to be in the public eye. If they had nothing to hide this would be public already.

MACDONALD: Would it be a problem for you if there was scope within this Bill for a union like the CFMMEU to be deregistered.

BURKE: Our view has always been that this Bill can't be fixed. That's always been our view.

MACDONALD: But that's not my question.

BURKE: Well the answer obviously if I'm opposed to the Bill in all its forms then whatever example you pull out I would be opposed to, because I'm opposed to this Bill in all its forms. The Government has claimed that they have amendments that would create a situation that might fix the Bill. I'm confident that's not the case and I want the Government to release the secret amendments.

MACDONALD: You obviously used the example of the nurses’ union protesting and I’m sure most listeners this morning would agree that's a pretty reasonable thing for some nurses to do. But then at the other end is the example of the CFMMEU. A judge has described it as the most recidivist corporate offender in Australian history. It's clear that that union is the real target of this Bill. What's the problem with going after a union that routinely breaches in the way that this union does?

BURKE: It's the stated target. It's not what the Bill in fact does. It's the rhetorical target of the Government. It's not in fact where the Bill itself is aimed. And there is an entire organisation - the ABCC – that the government claimed would do exactly what you just described, where those prosecutions haven't yet been been brought and concluded. So this is not … the rhetoric is about the union that you’ve named but no one should pretend for a minute - I'm not proposing you're pretending it, you’re just putting the questions – but no one should pretend that that in fact is what this Government legislation does. If it was only about that itwouldn't have been about an amendment to the Registered Organisations Commission's powers, it would have been an amendment to the ABCC. They have made a deliberate calculated decision, they don't want this to just be about construction, and this is about at the very least constantly tying up unions in paperwork. And realistically deregistering a large number of organisations and of officials from being able to defend workers.

MACDONALD: Forgive the colourful language but John Setka, the union boss from Victoria, talking about Anthony Albanese's absence from the Victorian ALP conference at the weekend told your leader to, in his words “grow some balls”. Is that a problem that Anthony Albanese has?

BURKE: Well first of all John Setka’s not a member of the Labor Party and he is one of the last people who we’d take any advice from in terms of which conferences people attend and which they don't … Anthony has been going to the conferences. I've been with him at the Brisbane conference, I've been with him at the WA conference. And you know there are a large number of these conferences every year, you don't get to every one of them every year. And the fact that that John Setka –

MACDONALD: Was he worried about some kind of staged walkout?

BURKE: No, no.

MACDONALD: Because 200 delegates walked out on Richard Marles when he was speaking.

BURKE: You had that particular union walk out. But you know at a Labor Party conference you sometimes get walkouts like that, it's not really a ‘stop the press’ moment.

MACDONALD: I want to play some audio from your former leader Bill Shorten at that union conference over the weekend. Here he is.

SHORTEN (RECORDED AUDIO): You can’t fatten a pig on market day. We are a party who did not seek to be the opposition, but 48.5 per cent of Australia gave us their two-party preferred vote. And what we need to do between now and the election, every day, is fight, fight and fight. Thank you very much.

MACDONALD: A few suggestions that maybe that's a signal that he wants to return as leader, he seems to have a lot of fight left in him. How do you interpret that speech?

BURKE: I hadn't heard that, that's the first time I heard that excerpt.

MACDONALD: Does it excite you? Does it get you going?

BURKE: Bill’s in the same position as the rest of the frontbench. The determination to make sure that we win next time, that we get over the line, is really strong. But you know if I were to stand up and make a speech at a Labor Conference, similar words I think you'd find would come out of my mouth.

MACDONALD: Also at the state conference the state president Hutch Hussein revealed that no fewer than 15 party members had come forward to complain of sexual harassment and bullying. I seem to recall during the election your party targeted the Coalition over its record on women, saying that the Coalition has a problem with women. I mean some of the detail in these cases is horrific. Does Labor actually have a problem with women?

BURKE: The detail of the cases was horrific. I couldn't agree with you more on that. What the president then went on to talk about was how those cases had then been dealt with. And I've got to say, and I’ve only got the information that the president put in the speech, but by all accounts there, we had what we need in terms of when an allegation is made by someone it needs to be taken seriously. They need to be listened to seriously. The allegation needs to be taken and investigated seriously, and then the action needs to follow through and follow through mercilessly. And by all accounts from that speech that’s exactly what happened.

MACDONALD: Sexual harassment, bullying, verbal abuse, intimidation, spitting in women's faces. Are you satisfied that these 15 party members are the only ones that have been subject to that kind of behaviour?

BURKE: Oh well you know I had never heard of allegations like that until they were made public by the president yesterday. So like you these allegations are new and they are horrific.

MACDONALD: I suppose it would be difficult to be certain those 15 are the only people that have experienced that.

BURKE: Well I've got to say that president's speech gave a pretty clear message of the repercussions that will be brought down on anyone who behaves that way, and in every organisation, whether it be a political party, whether it be a business, whether it be a part of Government or a Government corporation. In every instance we need to be able to send the message that the Victorian president sent on the weekend that this sort of behaviour will be dealt with decisively. And that's exactly what it appears happened in Victoria.

MACDONALD: So in short does Labor have some way to go in terms of getting this right?

BURKE: The whole of Australia does.

MACDONALD: Tony Burke, thank you.

BURKE: Great to talk to you.

ENDS