TRANSCRIPT: TELEVISION INTERVIEW - SKY NEWS WITH KIERAN GILBERT - WEDNESDAY, 25 MARCH 2020

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SKY NEWS WITH KIERAN GILBERT
WEDNESDAY, 25 MARCH 2020

SUBJECT: Coronavirus crisis, wage subsidies, Government’s decision to shut down parliament.

KIERAN GILBERT: We cross now to Shadow Industrial Relations Minister and Manager of Opposition Business in the House of Reps. Mr. Burke, you've said that the government should look at the wage-type guarantees that we've seen in the UK and elsewhere. What do you say to their argument that it's easier to do it with the system they've got rather than try and reinvent the wheel? That's the reason Treasury is telling them stick with the system you've got and try and support business that way through the BAS payments and so on.

TONY BURKE: Well the thing with what they're doing at the moment is they're not supporting wages at all. Businesses get paid the same amount whether they keep their staff on or not. So when the payments come through in the next quarter to business, businesses will be paid based on how many people they used to employ. A business that has sacked all its staff will get the same payment from the government as a business that has kept its staff on. Now that's not an incentive at all. And even if they did make these payments conditional, what the government is doing is providing effectively - if it were conditional - would still only amount to 20 percent of the wages bill. In the UK it's 80 per cent of the wages bill. So I don't mind which mechanism the Government wants to use. I don't mind which existing channel, whether it's the tax office or which methods they want to use, but what it has to be is a system where business is paid to keep people in work. Where it's conditional and it's enough of a support that business can afford to keep people on. If you're a business and all of a sudden you've lost your income, and the government says oh well, we'll pay the same whether you keep your workers on or not, or even if it was made conditional the government says for a median wage will pay 20 per cent – no business going through this crisis is going to be able to keep people on. And what's the outcome of that Kieran? Think of all the times you've heard Scott Morrison claim that one of his values was that the best form of welfare is a job. The moment he's been put to the test, we are watching the greatest transfer of people from work to welfare in our lifetime. And if he wants to say ‘oh well you know it's better to use existing channels they could they can handle it’ - look at the Centrelink queues because that's a direct result of the government doing it this way.

GILBERT: I do want to talk to more about that Centrelink scenario. This tragedy we're seeing with so many people, they are heartbreaking the images we've seen over this week, no doubt about it. But we'll get to that in a moment because I just want to explore the critique of the government's approach here because the Treasury documents that they have issued with this economic statement suggest for monthly activity statement lodges the additional payments are delivered as an automatic credit. On the monthly statement for quarterly activity statement lodges the businesses receive the payments, the scheduled payments as that as they go. Are you saying basically that they will receive those payments regardless of whether or not there is tax withheld in those statements?

BURKE: No no no. It's based on previous employment. So if you're on quarterly payments in that way, then the money that you get in the next quarter will be based on your wages bill in the previous quarter. For the second payment it will be based on the on the current quarter. But it's always based on how many people you used to employ. There is no point where the government checks ‘Do you still have those people in work?’ No point. Now if you did that that'd only fix a portion of the problem. Because you then have arguably the bigger problem which is all they're doing in terms of support is how much taxis withheld. Now if you're a median wage earner that's 20 percent. In the UK the subsidy is 80 percent. Now businesses want to keep people on because this isn't like other sorts of downturns. This is a not a downturn because of weakness in confidence. There were weaknesses in the economy, but what business is facing right now is a decision of government that you must close your doors. We want those businesses at the end of this to be able to open their doors again and still have their workforce with them. The way New Zealand's doing it, the way the UK is doing it, means that workers will continue to be paid via their employer. The relationship with the employer won't go away and in a few months’ time, when we're on the other side of this, that's going to make the world of difference to people's lives. Don't forget in other recessions or depressions you end up with some people who lose their jobs never returning to the workforce. What the UK is doing, what's happening throughout much of Europe, what's happening in New Zealand means that throughout this crisis as many people as possible will keep their relationship with their employer. That will make a world of difference on the other side. 

GILBERT: But to get the full subsidy, it seems from this Treasury advice, to get that full $100,000 dollar wage subsidy, they don't get it in one fell swoop. They don't get it in one quarter or one month, it's phased in. So for the second quarter or the second period that they seek to get this wages boost they still need to have people on their books don't they? I mean it's not like no one's going to get the $100,000 by sacking someone after their first payment, it's just that's not the way this is designed is it? Is that your understanding of how it works?
BURKE: Each time you get the payment from the government you get it based on how many people you used to employ. 

GILBERT: So no one is going to get the $100,000 If they sack people?

BURKE: That will affect the second payment, that will affect the second payment. I hear what you're saying there. That's right, they won't. They'll only get the first half of it. But right now, at the moment, that's what employers are facing. Employers are facing right now, what decisions am I going to make when my income is collapsing? And if the best the government is offering is for an employee on median wages a 20 percent support, and from the employer's perspective you'll only miss out on the second quarter's payment if you sack all your staff now, you'll still get the first payment – then no wonder we're seeing the Centrelink queues that we're seeing. This is a crisis like we haven't seen before and you need to be willing to be flexible and to say what's the objective? If the objective is to keep people in work and to keep people's relationship with the employer, then every Centrelink queue you see says the government is doing this the wrong way.
 
GILBERT: But you know the hospitality industry well and obviously so many of those businesses have gone under overnight, basically. They’ve had to at least shut their doors, and so many casual workers in that environment, a huge percentage of our workforce. Was it inevitable given the social lockdowns we've seen, this pandemic is not something that you or I have seen in our lifetime, it's horrendous. Is this social economic dislocation inevitable given the enormity of what the government's having to grapple with? 

BURKE: The fact that there will be huge dislocation, yes. But the fact that we are seeing it on such a scale? No. Because the government has decided that they would rather have people receive the money from Centrelink then receive the money from their employer. That has been an active decision of government that is different to the decisions of New Zealand, and different to the decisions in UK and other countries. This is not sort of an accidental implication. This is how Scott Morrison and Josh Frydenberg have designed it. They designed it that you shift from being paid by your employer, to being paid by Centrelink. That's why we're seeing those queues. It creates a problem for employers and creates a problem for employees. You have to look at the goodwill that's out there trying to find a way through this. To see what the Australian Hotels Association and the United Workers Union did with the industrial commission yesterday. Where for full timers, they'll be able during this time to significantly cut how many shifts they've got but to keep them on the books. Businesses understand how important it is to keep people on the books. They want this to work. The union movement is being flexible. They want this to work. The government is looking at this through a political prism. Scott Morrison, every chance he gets says look at the global financial crisis. I'll tell you one thing we didn't see during the global financial crisis: that's the Centrelink queues you're looking at right now. Right now. These are decisions Scott Morrison has made. Labor argued in the Parliament, the union movement is arguing and businesses arguing more loudly and loudly every day to do this a different way.
 
GILBERT: The parliament has now risen until August. Is there any way that you can see – as Manager of Opposition Business, if you can put that hat on for us – that you can see Parliament sitting without having to actually come to Canberra. Can you have a virtual sitting if legislation needs to be passed or so on?

BURKE: The government saying we won't sit until August is frankly ridiculous. It's ridiculous and it's offensive, and it sends a message to every Australian that we see no need to update the law or to hold the government accountable while Australians are going through the biggest crisis of their lives. It is an absurd, arrogant decision from the government. And can I tell you they are going to need to revisit it. What went through on Monday, we supported that because it was urgent but they have not got that project right. And what you're seeing around the country with closed doors and Centrelink queues, the crisis we’re seeing, tells you that they need to come back. The sooner they do it the sooner we get back to that parliament to fix these challenges, then the fewer Australians are going to be thrown out of the workforce. 

GILBERT: Can you do it though while self-isolating?

BURKE: Well right at the moment all we need - because there was a standing order change that we made - so that all we need is a quorum, which is 31 members, and we're going to be able to sit. That's all we need. Now it is almost impossible with the current isolation rules to imagine that we won't be able to get 31 people to Canberra. Now if we ended up with a situation where we did have to go to some sort of “break glass” other option the flexibility is there we put that through the Parliament. But I've got to tell you at this stage we don't expect that we'll need to use that. What we need to do and what we can do is meet in the normal way. We only need 31 people there, and we need to do it soon because the government has not yet got gotten this right. And once people lose their jobs during the crisis - at the other end of this it is much harder for them and much harder for the businesses that employ them.

GILBERT: Mr Burke I appreciate your time as always, thanks. 

BURKE: Great to talk to you Kieran.

ENDS