TRANSCRIPT: TV INTERVIEW - ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING - MONDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2021

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING
MONDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2021

SUBJECTS: Christian Porter privileges committee referral, Melbourne protest, arts industry, COVID in Western Sydney.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Tony Burke is the Shadow Minister for Industrial Relations and the arts. He's my first guest. Welcome.

TONY BURKE, SHADOW MINISTER FOR INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: Good to be back.

KARVELAS: Let’s start on this issue around Christian Porter. Will a referral to parliament’s privileges committee be Labor’s first order of business when parliament returns next month?

BURKE: I'm putting it together now. As a Member of Parliament you just can't accept anonymous money and think that's not a problem. The whole reason we have a declaration of interests is to declare your interests. Now, they're using the term "blind trust". This isn't like what Malcolm Turnbull did when he had assets, wanted to make sure he wasn't trading in them so set up a blind trust to be able to make those trading decisions. This is effectively a brown paper bag sewn together by lawyers. Christian Porter says he has no idea where the money came from. It just beggars belief. Of all the charities that people could give money to, we're meant to believe that a million dollars just turned up where the best cause these people thought they could find was Christian Porter to pay for legal fees for a case he wasn't proceeding with? We're meant to believe there's no other interests, no other quid pro quos? He should declare where the money came from. If he can't do that, he can't keep the rules that every Member of Parliament is meant to keep.

KARVELAS: So if Labor wants to refer him to the privileges committee, two things - you will need the numbers, and you don't have the numbers on the House of Representatives floor. Do you think you can swing it?

BURKE: You don't actually need the numbers, with respect to privileges references. The one I would remind you is Bruce Wilson. There you had a Member of Parliament on the way out taking money from a lobbying firm, and issuing media releases for them while he was a Member of Parliament. Even though Tony Smith as the Liberal Speaker had to make a decision as to whether it be given precedence, he did. Even though you had a Liberal majority on the committee and they were dealing with a former Liberal member, then they did make a negative finding against Bruce Billson. The only thing I’d add is it doesn't stop Scott Morrison from coming in at the end and still giving Billson an appointment. So ultimately, can privileges act? Yes. Do I trust the committee? Yes. But is Scott Morrison capable of coming in over the top and just abolishing all standards? Yeah, that's what he does all the time.

KARVELAS: That's was my question. I wasn't going to be so pointed about the Prime Minister, but about whether that will essentially be stymied. What guts, what power does it have? What can it do?

BURKE: Look, it can censure Members of Parliament. It has some very powerful, it’s one of the most powerful committees of the parliament, the privileges committee. The thing I add though is that Barnaby Joyce today gave away the game as to where this government wants to head on the other side of the election if they’re re-elected. He made clear that in his view Christian Porter was already on the way back. And I can see why you form that view. Barnaby Joyce was sacked, he came back, Bridget McKenzie, Stuart Robert, Sussan Ley - we've never had a government before where one of the preconditions of resigning in disgrace is that you're in the front of the queue to get another run.

KARVELAS: Let's go to that. I want to ask more specific questions. The Acting Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce saying this morning that Christian Porter may get another shot at the frontbench and that he's paid the price. Barnaby Joyce saying one thing is one thing. The Prime Minister making the decision is another. Do you take it really seriously that Barnaby Joyce has said this? Does it really mean it's going to happen?

BURKE: It actually matches how Mr Morrison behaves. One of the most extraordinary things with this, is if you had an anti-corruption commission they would be straight on to something like this and would get to the bottom quickly of where the money came from. Who was the person who Mr Morrison put in charge as to whether or not we'd have an anti-corruption commission for most of this term? Christian Porter. You don't get many issues where every issue of probity just comes together in the exact same moment and that's what we have here. You can see why they don't want an anti-corruption commission. Anthony Albanese has made clear we're committed to one. We will deliver one.

KARVELAS: The former industry and science minister, Christian Porter, has denied any wrongdoing and is keeping the money for the moment. If he says that, and the Government says, the Prime Minister's line is - hang on, he's not a minister and therefore he's not breaching the ministerial guidelines, there's not much you can do, is there?

BURKE: If I start with the principle, this is no longer about his role as a minister, he's no longer a minister. This is about his obligation as a Member of Parliament. As a Member of Parliament, you don't have the luxury of saying "The cash just turned up in a brown paper bag, I have no idea who owned it". If that’s the situation, you don't get to keep it. If you have decided to take remuneration in this way, you must declare who it came from. Let's not forget Sam Dastyari was not a minister. He was hounded out of the parliament by Mr Morrison himself for taking an amount of less than $2,000 and he declared who it came from, on the basis that it was a private expense. This is entirely private. Nothing to do with Mr Porter's former role as minister, nothing to do with his role as an MP. But as an MP, he has an obligation to tell us where the money comes from.

KARVELAS: The Government says Mr Porter's contract is with the people in his electorate of Pearce, in Western Australia. They will get to decide if he's done the right or wrong thing by chucking him out of parliament, potentially, if they make that determination. What is your response to that?

BURKE: It shows where the standards of the Government are now at. Effectively, you have one standard the Deputy Prime Minister put forward in what you quoted back to me earlier, and another standard from the Prime Minister. Which is there are only two things they say that matter: if you're not locked up by the police or if you're voted in. Once, if you can tick those two boxes, then no other standards of probity apply. This says everything about why every other jurisdiction has an anti-corruption body. That's because people want there to be some sunlight on these issues. It's why we've committed to it. But effectively the argument from the Government is to say there are no extra standards on Members of Parliament. There are some countries around the world that run that way - Australia should not be one of them.

KARVELAS: I want to move on to another issue, which is very significant today, those protests outside the CFMEU in Melbourne. Protesters have smashed windows, kicked in glass and thrown bottles at the CFMEU building. What do you make of what’s happened here?

BURKE: Look, first of all, you can't demonstrate against coronavirus. You can't demonstrate against a virus to have any effect. It's not listening.

KARVELAS: Well they're protesting against compulsory vaccinations in their industry. Do they have a case in your view?

BURKE: Look, I would have preferred we'd gone down a path of incentives. We argued very strongly for incentives. Anthony Albanese announced the $300 payment. It would have been a fast way of dealing. Someone who is a full-on anti-vaxxer, it won't make any difference to them but it would have been a fast way of getting more people vaccinated the moment supply became available. Having not gone down that path, then these sorts of measures are all that's left. The problem is we all have an interest in other people being vaccinated, too. Because this issue is not only about whether or not you catch COVID and you need access to a hospital, to an intensive care ward, to a ventilator. It's also whether if anything else goes wrong with your health, is the hospital already full? And so where some people say, "If a whole lot of people don't get vaccinated what's the problem?" Well, it's in no-one's interests for our hospital system to be overloaded. We're already seeing those sorts of challenges in my part of Sydney.

KARVELAS: It seems to me like a breathtaking example of arrogance and privilege. Some of these workers are pretty highly-paid. They've got to work throughout most of the pandemic in a state where most people have been stood down. Last week they were protesting about the right to have tea-rooms when COVID cases are spreading in their industry. Do you think they're being unreasonable?

BURKE: Well, certainly, I have no time for protests that are opposing health measures. When it's a time for public health, we need to stick together. I get that people under prolonged lockdowns are really feeling pressure and some of that is being borne out. I'm feeling that in my part of Sydney but I can only imagine what it's like in Melbourne, where it's added to what happened last year as well. So people are really on edge at the moment, that's true. It's also the case that we need people to get vaccinated as soon as possible. No demonstration will change the fact we need people to get vaccinated as soon as possible. And the concept that there will be some places that you will be able to go where you're vaccinated more quickly and it might be a workplace for some, it might be - when you referred to the arts portfolio - it will become the case that for a whole lot of live entertainment they will be able to open up more quickly with events that are only for vaccinated people. So, a whole lot of this is going to happen -
KARVELAS: So these workers ... They look pretty unreasonable then, don't they? You make the point about Melbourne. They're not the ones that are stuck at home in Melbourne.

BURKE: Sorry, if you're thinking I’m backing them in, I'm not.

KARVELAS: I'm not saying that, but it's pretty breathtaking isn't it? Aged care workers have been asked to do it why shouldn't they, if it's running through their industry? It's questionable what
they're doing?

BURKE: No, and I don't support the demo. I want people to get vaccinated and I would love to be in a world where there were no rules associated with vaccination. That's not the world that COVID has brought to us. I've seen people who in my part of Sydney, who were hesitant and who thought the whole thing wasn't as big as a concern, who then, one in particular, who found himself on a ventilator and then said, "OK, this is real". The health crisis is a moment where we need to stick together like never before. That does mean we need people to get vaccinated.

KARVELAS: I want to talk about the Victorian roadmap, which has been criticised for being quite conservative. Really there's a lot of waiting, I have to say, for a state that's been hit hard by lockdowns. What do you make of the road map? Is it too cautious?

BURKE: Look, I don't envy any Premier at the moment trying to work their way through this. There are moments in politics where no matter which way you go, each option involves harm. They are really, really tough moments. So for any of the Premiers in trying to work their way out of that, they have to make judgement calls. I've tried to avoid being in the business of second guessing them. I've had concerns about some things that have been implemented in my own part of Sydney, where people have seen what they felt is very much a double standard, both in the rules and how some of them have been enforced. I've been quite vocal about that, but for the Premiers trying to work their way through this, it's not a job that anyone should envy.

KARVELAS: OK. What does it mean for the arts sector? Are you worried about the arts sector's ability to restart in Victoria with this roadmap?

BURKE: Yeah and what we need right now - the Federal Government can do two things that are really helpful here. One is to provide leadership and the second is to provide policy aimed at opening up. On leadership, they should not be saying, "Oh, look, every business go your own way on whether everyone has to be vaccinated or not" - they should provide clear guidance so that venues don't have to go off independently and all get their own health advice. Second thing they should do though with policy, we will need an insurance scheme because people can't insure against lockdowns and we’re going to need some sort of wage subsidy in circumstances where the social distancing rules allow events to go ahead, but prevent them from being commercial unless that assistance is targeted. At the moment what the Government has done is fund a whole lot of events that haven't happened, the money has sat with the promoter, that's where it was meant to go - I don't blame the promoters - but there are workers all across Australia after millions of dollars have been spent, who are still left with nothing.

KARVELAS: Just finally, the LGAs of concern, including the one you're in, are going to have the same rules. Are you pleased, does this reunite Sydney?

BURKE: Yeah, it's closer. They're not identical rules yet. But look, we're welcoming everything that we can get. The issue that I referred to earlier was the double standard where people were not wearing masks at the beach and it appeared from the news that the police were doing nothing on a weekend where you did in fact have to wear masks. And then it really hit boiling point when people were arrested graveside at Rookwood Cemetery. Whatever the health rules are, if they're policed and enforced uniformly, it really helps everybody. In a time where everybody needs to stick together, you need to know you're in it together and we don't want to have circumstances where people just feel it's one rule for them and another for wealthier parts of Sydney.

KARVELAS: Thank you for joining us.

BURKE: Great to be back.

ENDS