TRANSCRIPT: DOORSTOP INTERVIEW - CANBERRA - FEB 25, 2021

ANTHONY ALBANESE MP
LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY
MEMBER FOR GRAYNDLER

TONY BURKE MP
SHADOW MINISTER FOR INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
SHADOW MINISTER FOR THE ARTS
MANAGER OF OPPOSITION BUSINESS
MEMBER FOR WATSON

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DOORSTOP INTERVIEW
PARLIAMENT HOUSE, CANBERRA
THURSDAY, 25 FEBRUARY 2021

SUBJECTS: Gig economy; insecure work; industrial relations; fairer pay and conditions; vaccine rollout.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Thanks for joining us. I am here with Tony Burke, our Shadow Industrial Relations spokesperson, but also with Michael Kaine, the National Secretary of the Transport Workers’ Union, and James, Ashley and Malcolm. And I want to pay particular tribute to them for having the courage to speak out on behalf of themselves, on behalf of the people the work with, and workers to come. What we have seen in our national economy is a significant change over the last few years, the gig economy and gig work. The truth is, a decade ago people weren't ordering food on an app. They weren't ordering a car to take them from A to B through Uber. The economy has changed. And that technology has brought convenience. It's something that has made many lives easier. But it's also a fact that the industrial relations system hasn't kept up with it. And that's why in my speech, announcing the first part of our Making Australian Jobs Secure plan, what we outlined was the fact that the Fair Work Commission should be allowed to make minimum standards in new forms of work, like the gig economy. We have raised in the last fortnight pretty simple questions like, ‘Should Australian workers be paid at least the minimum wage?’ I would have thought that that was a pretty sensible thing in Australia in 2021. What we know is that there have been tragic consequences of pressure placed on people with the loss of five lives in a period of just three months towards the end of the year. What we can't have as emerge, as new technology continues to impinge in new areas, what we can't have is a circumstance whereby we have two industrial relations systems, one that has pay, one that has annual leave, sick leave, one that has conditions that most Australians take for granted, and another whole section of society who are marginalised, who don't enjoy any minimum wage. They don't get any annual leave, don't get any sick leave, don't get any superannuation. That's a recipe for growing inequality in our society. It's not fair. It's not the Australian way. And what we saw just last week was the decision by the UK Supreme Court that declared that the gig workers should be protected, just like the rest of us. So today's an opportunity to hear from these workers firsthand. That's what this Parliament should be about, representing the interests of people who don't get their voices heard, the marginalised. And these workers, I think, have shown great courage. And I would ask Michael Kaine to introduce them to you this morning.

MICHAEL KAINE, NATIONAL SECRETARY OF THE TRANSPORT WORKERS’ UNION: Thanks, Anthony. In September last year, Chow Khai Shien, Xiaojun Chen, Dede Fredy, Bijoy Paul and Ik Wong were all workers in the Australian economy, delivering food in the middle of a pandemic on their bikes. They are all dead. They are victims of an economy which has left Australia behind. Victims of laws which are hopelessly outdated. We will keep saying their names. We will keep saying their names because they are the emblems of change. Just last night, Italy, the latest country, the third country in a week, to say that these workers deserve rights, with Holland, it was the UK over the weekend, and last night, Italy. We still have the spectre of Australians dying doing this work, let alone not having those rights. And last night, another exposé on the 7:30 report about the company Hungry Panda. And James is a worker from Hungry Panda who's had his contract terminated. And we'll hear from him now.

JAMES YANG, HUNGRY PANDA WORKER: Good morning, everyone. My name is James Yang. I am from China. I work for Hungry Panda. Hungry Panda keeps on reducing our payments. And riders like us feel helpless. So I organised a group of people to voice their concerns. In the same afternoon, I was kicked out of the platform and my app has been blocked. Then I sought help with the TWU, and we were trying to conduct a negotiation with Hungry Panda. However, at the beginning, they refused to negotiate. However, there was a hearing in the city at last. And today I'm very grateful that I'm here at the Parliament House. I wish there was a law to protect riders, that we have insurance and certain conditions. I hope there'll be some penalties put on these companies who do not follow the laws. I really hope there would be a certain protection for workers like me. I also take this opportunity to express my concerns to the riders who died in their work. I hope there was some compensation for them. I'm pretty angry at those types of companies. I hope that the community will support our riders and give us a fair treatment. Thank you very much.

KAINE: Thanks, James. And because the laws are outdated, because these companies impose a misclassification on these workers, calling them independent contractors, we are taking a case for James and his colleague. We'll have to run it again through the courts. Again, we'll be forced to try and prove that they are employees. This is old fashioned, archaic law that needs to be changed. It's time for the Federal Government to step up and do that. Malcolm's a rideshare driver and I will ask him to say a few words.

MALCOLM MACKENZIE, RIDESHARE DRIVER: Hello, my name is Malcolm Mackenzie, I'm a rideshare driver in Sydney. I interact with drivers through social media. I belong to a group of about 2,500 drivers. And they tell me of the trouble they have doing their job as a rideshare driver. There are many aspects, low paying conditions, having enough money to pay for the upkeep of the car, the depreciation, the eventual need for capital to replace that car, and to make enough money to raise a family. For many of the drivers, it's very difficult. It's very difficult indeed. And so with those difficulties in mind, drivers face the possibility of termination through the app as a result of a fallacious claim against them, unsubstantiated claim against them, for some serious problem, which may be, 'The driver looked like he was under the influence'. That's a serious report. And Uber takes it seriously. So the text goes and the driver is notified. And it's extremely distressing. The driver is immediately terminated. And then it goes into a process of investigation. But there's only two accounts, the rider's account and the driver's account. And the driver is offline for two to four days. Well, that's resolved. If it's a first attempt, or first problem, then they may get back on the app. If it's a second, over time all the driver cares about is getting back on the app and being able to make money. And once they are back on the app, they think it's over. But there's a mark against them. And it happens again. And it may very well be another false claim against them, a false report. And they will go through that same process again. 'Someone has notified us of a serious problem with your driving. They noticed that you were wandering all over the road. You didn't seem to be able to control the vehicle properly'. Terminated. An investigation. 'We've noticed that you have a history of these types of issues'. And then there's the message to the driver. 'Well, we've really enjoyed working with you. But we regret to inform you that we can no longer continue our relationship. We wish you the best in the future'. It's extremely distressing and it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

KAINE: And Ashley?

ASHLEY MORELAND, FOOD DELIVERY DRIVER: Hi, everyone. My name is Ashley. I got into the food delivery platforms a few years ago. Going back to study as a full-time student, I was attracted by the idea of the flexible work that it gave. And on signing the contract, I was of the belief that this was an industry that would, of course, be regulated, that there will be some laws around it that would protect minimum rights of employment. And so, it was a great shock to find that within a very short time of commencing the work, that there were times, for example, where I'd be sitting in a park earning $0 an hour where I'd have no orders. And you just had to wear that. And then when you do get orders, there's a feeling that you need to recover those lost earnings for the quiet periods. And more recently, there's a lot of pressure to actually make these deliveries or else you're told that you'll get excommunicated from these platforms in the form of threatening emails where they say, 'You were x minutes late for such and such delivery'. And there's no recourse either, if you're terminated, as Malcolm was just describing, or if you just merely have an issue that you'd like to have your record clean. That's the issue really at the heart of this is there's no mechanism of discussion or feedback that you'd normally expect with a relationship of work. When you do work, as I was saying, there's a great pressure to work faster. And when doing deliveries, that often means obviating traffic signals and alike. And I myself have been injured. And I'd say that a large portion of that was down to taking that extra risk in the feeling that I was potentially going to lose my job if I didn't make these orders quicker. And in hindsight, it just seems ridiculous in a modern economy, a modern democracy, where you could do a job for half the minimum wage on average, and yet your life's at risk. I mean, we had five guys killed just in the latter part of last year. So it really is time, I think, that laws caught up to the technology and that we brought some rights to this industry. Because I think it's a bit of a shame that in a modern developed democracy, we have this situation of third world work.

TONY BURKE, SHADOW MINISTER FOR INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: The three workers you've just heard from are part of a growing section of the Australian workforce. They are workers who work in Australia with no safety net. We want the 21st century technology. But it shouldn't have to come with 19th century working conditions. What Labor's putting forward is to give the Industrial Commission the power to be able to deal with minimum standards for these workers. The argument that somehow the stories you just heard are from people who are out there with full independence, running their own business, just doesn't stack up. I never thought we'd have a situation where the toughest question you could ask a Prime Minister was, 'Should workers in Australia be at least paid the minimum wage?' But that's where we're at. And it needs to be fixed.

ALBANESE: Happy to take questions. And I think our workers here are happy to take some questions too, if you've got some for them.

JOURNALIST: Mr Albanese, given the two overdoses yesterday of the vaccine.

ALBANESE: Out of respect for the workers, I'm happy to take other questions. But if there's questions about these issues, then this is an opportunity for the Parliament House Press Gallery to speak to some people on the ground.

JOURNALIST: In other countries that these companies have launched major campaigns against reforms to workplace laws. Are you prepared for that kind of fight?

ALBANESE: Look, the fact is that we need an economy that works for people, not people working for an economy. It's a fundamental difference of where we are as a society. And my view is that customers, as well, would be prepared to acknowledge that it's just not fair if they knew that people were working sometimes for under $10 an hour without any rights whatsoever. I've had some questions raised about cost. Well, Michael Kaine outlined one of the costs. The cost of the current system is five lives being lost. Ashley's story, Ashley works in my part of the world. I see it. I see pushbikes, as someone who's very conscious about road safety, particularly this year, you see riders taking risks. And as a driver, that annoys people, let's be frank about it. But there's a reason why they're taking risks. Because if you have no rights and you have an algorithm that is pitting worker against worker, including the idea that someone, Ashley, might be given 10 minutes to go from a restaurant to a home, and on any reasonable safety basis, that ride should take 13 or 14 minutes, depending upon whether the lights change or not it might take 15 or 16. But if Ashley doesn't do that and he falls behind someone else, then they can therefore lose work. And it's not just blue-collar industries as well. We met yesterday with a worker, Reena, who I spoke about in Brisbane as well. She is an NDIS worker. You now have apps with the NDIS whereby if someone is putting in a bid to do work for a particular amount and someone's bidding lower, they can get that. We see it with other apps such as getting work done around the house, whereby you have a cascade down, a fight to the bottom. Australia is a better country than that. As Michael has said, three countries in Europe in the last week have made the decision that workers deserve dignity and deserve some rights. We certainly do deserve that. These workers deserve it. And I think that it is something that should be, in my view, bipartisan across the board.

JOURNALIST: What would be the main thing that you would like to see? Would it be a minimum wage? Would it be sick leave or annual leave? What is the thing that would make your job safer?

MORELAND: I think at the end of the day, there's a number of circumstances that are coming together to make the work particularly dangerous. I mean, let's face it, it is the safety during the deliveries and the risk. And what drives that is really the algorithm. Because there's no accountability. And these companies are part of this new gig economy, this data driven economy where they safeguard these algorithms, how they work, as if it's like a secret that determines their livelihood or not. It's not until we actually break apart how those algorithms work by forcing the companies to reveal this, which by the way, would probably need to occur through some independent body that's set up to investigate, which there seems to be some progress toward. It's only by doing that there'll be some transparency and that in the same way that current industries of more old-style work can be looked at and we know how the systems actually work, that there's a definite mechanism that we can pinpoint. It's not until that happens with this gig economy that we can go, 'Here's these gaping holes and unfair processes at play that are actually applied to each and every one of us'. And there are thousands of people doing this work now in Australia.

JOURNALIST: I would imagine that very few of us here have done the sought of work that you are, (inaudible).

MORELAND: Yes, there is that element too. But it's more at this stage, it is about job security at a very basic level. The main concern most guys have is keeping their job. Because there's an awful lot of bullying that goes on that is effectively done by the algorithm, as if there's no person taking responsibility for it, such that, as I was saying before, if you're even a few minutes late now, accounts are getting flagged. And there's only two or so warnings of that. It is not done with any proper form of communication where there's recourse for explanation given like traffic lights or the realities of real life. And you can be terminated with no real contact at all and no forewarning. And there's people with families who are relying on this. So I think there needs to be transparency to kick things off. At the moment, I think what we really need is some kind of regulation that will force that transparency, because they're certainly not going to do it of their own volition.

JOURNALIST: So are your frustrations with your employer or with the Federal Government?

MORELAND: Probably a mix of both, because I find it hard to believe that we can be six years or seven years into this gig economy and it's only now that we're even starting to look at some form of regulation around it. I think there's been a lot of business interest that's given credibility by nature of a capitalist system that we all work in. But it really is now getting to the point where arguments are being put forward to justify slavery as if we pay a minimum wage, then we can't operate it. I think we can all agree as Australians, minimum wages are there for a reason. And at least in this industry, they could be used as well to make sure that riders are not taking these ridiculous risks. I don't think any other drivers on the road or people ordering this food wants to find themselves hearing that riders are dying and delivering that food, or they themselves are running into them because they're having to take these outrageous risks, lest they get terminated with no notice.

JOURNALIST: There is talk that more regulations coming would raise the cost of delivery of foods. Do you think that would discourage people who are using UberEATS? Would the regular consumer be willing to pay the price?

MORELAND: Well, all I can speak from would be my personal experience. And even as a low-income earner, I'd be more than willing to pay an extra dollar to have my conscience clear that I'm employing someone and not encouraging them to risk their lives to deliver food and in danger of other road users, by the way.

JOURNALIST: This is a billion-dollar industry. People are going to be unhappy about this idea that you are taking revenue away from them. Going into an election cycle, are you prepared for a massive fight with these massive companies?

ALBANESE: Let me do a really good analogy that everyone here will get. Google and Facebook - the Government and the Opposition and this Parliament have been prepared to take tough decisions. We have been prepared to stand ground, to legislate for a code, and to do that in order to defend Australia's national interests and defend the jobs of journalists in what is, of course, a fine profession. We've done that as a Parliament. We didn't do that 10 years ago, because it wasn't an issue. It is an issue now. Google have done agreements. Facebook, of course, we saw their over the top, reprehensible actions that they took. The Government was prepared to stand up in the interests of people who work for News Limited, Seven West Media, Nine and other media organisations. Labor stood with the Government on those issues. It was the right thing to do. James, Ashley and Malcolm deserve as much respect and dignity as the people at this press conference. They deserve it. And we should be prepared to acknowledge, just as overseas it has happened, the fact that the economy has changed, technology has brought these changes to us that have brought great benefits. No one is anti this technology. I use this technology. We all use it. But we should keep the industrial relations system going. So when we've raised questions in Question Time, such as, 'Does the Government support people being paid at least a minimum wage?' That isn't a hard question. That's a Dorothy Dixer, as they are called. The answer should be yes. Because if you take the view as well that paying at least the minimum wage will discourage economic activity from happening, well apply that principle across the board, apply that thinking across the board and what it means for working conditions. And at a time in which these are the very workers who have got us through the pandemic, they kept working. One of the things we need to do coming out of the pandemic is identify where the weaknesses in our economy and in structural change in our society is and fix them. Fix them. And this is one of the fixes that is needed.

JOURNALIST: (Inaudible).

ALBANESE: Well, the Government has a particular responsibility to migrant and vulnerable workers. We've heard here from James, a migrant from China, who works for Hungry Panda, that's been the subject of real catastrophic consequences. The ultimate consequences of this piece of work being undertaken at rates that just aren't fair. And James has said that he's been taken off the app for standing up for his fellow workers. I pay tribute to his courage and to the courage of Ashley and Malcolm, who've joined us here today. The Government has a responsibility. What we're talking here about, the idea if these three guys are individual contractors, they have as much chance of getting in touch with the people who run Uber or these other apps, as they do of ringing up Mark Zuckerberg on his mobile and talking about Facebook. Josh Frydenberg got onto Mark Zuckerberg about Facebook. Why isn't the Government prepared to negotiate on behalf of these people?

JOURNALIST: What changes would Labor take in terms of the election campaign? (Inaudible).

ALBANESE: We will make our election announcements when we make them. And what we have done is, of course, make a significant announcement last week about industrial relations, or a fortnight ago, in Brisbane. I foreshadowed that well in advance that we were doing it. We want the Government to come with us on this journey. Let's be very clear, I don't want this to be a partisan issue. It shouldn't be a partisan issue whether someone be paid the minimum wage. It should be just the Australian way. And so I say to the Government, sit down with these workers and talk with them. Talk with the union. The union is up for discussion. They're up for change. I don't want to wait till after an election. I don't want this to be an issue of Labor or the Coalition. This is something that, frankly, should have been addressed when the Government last year said it was going to have a look at industrial relations reform. What we got was trying to get rid of the Better Off Overall Test. We know as well, I will make this point, the driving down of wages in one section of the economy, such as gig work, drives down wages in every section. That's what it's about. The Reserve Bank of Australia, every economist in the land, says that what we need to do is to deal with wage stagnation, that it's something holding back our economy, that it's bad not just for these workers but it's bad for every worker and it's bad for our national economy. It needs to be addressed. I had a question before here. Is there any more on this issue?

JOURNALIST: Are you so confident in the vaccine rollout given the overdoses and the revelations that this doctor behind them didn't have the proper training?

ALBANESE: Well, we need to get it right. The Government needs to get it right. The Government's responsible for the rollout. I got my vaccine. I want every Australian to be vaccinated. Because vaccinations save lives, vaccines don't. They actually need to be handed out. And every Australian, I would encourage them to. It's safe. We were all encouraged. The medical advice was that political leaders getting the vaccine encourages the general population to. Because we shouldn't be asking others to do what we're not prepared to do. I can assure you that I had no bad effects whatsoever. It was done very professionally outside Royal Canberra Hospital. And Yom, the wonderful nurse who looked after me, I really appreciate it. Thanks very much.

ENDS