TRANSCRIPT: TV INTERVIEW - ABC NEWS - MARCH 15, 2021

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING
MONDAY, 15 MARCH 2021

SUBJECTS: Women’s march; Brittany Higgins; sexual harassment; Christian Porter defamation action; industrial relations.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Tony Burke, welcome to the program. I want to start off with today’s marches of course. What was your response to Brittany Higgins, the woman who’s made this allegation in relation to her rape occurring at Parliament House, coming and fronting that crowd and delivering that speech.

TONY BURKE, SHADOW MINISTER FOR INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: It was a moment … I've rarely seen something as powerful as that, I've got to say. You think of the courage of confronting the building again, particularly after a whole lot of the treatment not only that she felt when she was working in the building but also in terms of how she has been treated in different ways over recent weeks. The mere fact of being there was extraordinary and her words, I thought, were incredibly powerful.

KARVELAS: While much of the focus has of course centred on sexual assault allegations within the Liberal Party, current and former Labor female staff members have also shared their experiences of harassment and abuse. The question I have for you is what proactive steps are being taken to identify the people these allegations are being made about? I know that there has been encouragement for them to come forward but what support is being provided to those women so that this can actually be pursued and investigated?

BURKE: So first of all, in terms of that group is a closed group, so I don't get access to it. But in terms of people, Jenny Macklin from the reports I’ve seen has specifically come forward into that group, asking people, that they will be believed, that they will be supported and recommending different places they can go to. It's also the case now that we have a system of people wanting to make the complaint within the party itself there is an external process that was settled on a few weeks ago, it was more than a year in the making, and the timing of it was not related to everything that's happened in this building over recent weeks, but that was settled a few weeks ago. So there's all of those processes available. That's all been made clear within that particular group. But can I also say, because they may well be somebody who has made one of those complaints watching, what has been described in those posts is completely unacceptable. Those individuals, they are believed. We want them to come forward and they will be supported.

KARVELAS: And if they do come forward and make a specific allegation about a particular frontbencher, for example, should that frontbencher step aside?

BURKE: As a general principle, my view is if it is of the gravity of some of what I've seen then the answer is yes. And can I give a simple example that I saw a long time ago with respect with Hazem El Masri, when there was an accusation against him and he stood aside from all of his roles. Now, on that occasion it happens to be something that was not, you know, the allegation had a particular circumstance to it. But at every point he said he was standing aside because he wanted people to have the confidence to come forward. And he never wanted anything to get in the way of people having the confidence to come forward. And I think that needs to be the lens here. We can’t have this immediate knee-jerk reaction, which is to say that our sympathy goes to whoever the allegation’s been made against. And a knee-jerk reaction that people aren’t believed.

KARVELAS: So you're saying that should be the protocol, that you step aside if there is an allegation that is made. Do you understand there to be any complaints that have now been made through your process?

BURKE: I don't know the answer to that.

KARVELAS: Should that be disclosed? Obviously anonymity if the person wants it is key, no-one is debating that, but whether there have been complaints that the Labor Party is now dealing with?

BURKE: I think that's very much you want the complainant to have control over that. And if the complainant is choosing to do it through the party rather than other processes, that is a path they have chosen and I think it would be really problematic if we took that level of control away.

KARVELAS: But with respect that was the kind of argument the government made about Brittany Higgins wasn’t it, that she did not want to make the complaint and they have consistently been arguing it was about her and her power, her autonomy. Her agency is the word that is used.

BURKE: Can I say, that's not Brittany Higgins’ recollection of what happened. And I think one of the things that you really need to make sure you get absolutely right here is not simply the letter of the rules and the processes, but also the tone in which things are explained and the expectations that are given. Brittany Higgins has made comments - and I don't want to misquote her – but essentially believing that there was a level of pressure on her to do the “right thing” by the party. What I'm wanting to make clear is that there is nothing other than a desire that people come forward and that their complaints are dealt with appropriately. That is what we want them to do and they will be supported in that.

KARVELAS: Christian Porter has launched a defamation action, as you know against the ABC and our journalist Louise Milligan, confirming he will go under oath to deny any historical allegations. What do you make of this decision and the laws around defamation and how this will proceed?

BURKE: Oh, in terms of the laws around defamation I don't know. But what I do know is none of that has anything to do with whether or not an investigation takes place into whether or not he is a fit and proper person to be Attorney General. They’re completely different paths. If people want to pursue an issue through the courts, they pursue an issue through the courts. There is a separate civil question about fit and proper person to be in the role and you know, it seemed today, from the Prime Minister's answers in question time that he still has not read the allegations, that he still hasn’t read the documents that were sent to his office. Now, I find that extraordinary. He got some dates mixed up and he had a thing about when he spoke to the Attorney-General versus when documents were received but by all accounts, right till now, he still has not read the allegations. And the thing I find extraordinary about that is the number of speeches I’ve heard where it is about people need to be believed, if they come forward they need to be believed, and the documents make it all the way to the Prime Minister's office and they are not even read.

KARVELAS: Tony Burke, briefly, should Kate Jenkins' inquiry into the culture in Parliament, should it be exempt from FOI and subject to parliamentary privilege?

BURKE: I think it's really important that people have a capacity to make anonymous complaints if that’s what they want to do. The worst of all worlds would be if people who have information to come forward choose not to because of the FOI rules. That would be devastating. So I think around everything we've got to work on the basis of a good inquiry is one that gets all the possible information. And anything that will prevent information from coming forward is not in the interests of fixing this problem. One of the things that we just have to have a complete focus on is fixing the different cultures that are in this building. This building has a whole lot of different offices, all run a whole lot of different ways, and there are different cultures in each one. But there is a culture across much of this building which is clearly horrific, clearly unacceptable and has to be fixed. That inquiry will not have the power to fix it if it does not get the information. And if some people are worried about information that they want to keep confidential becoming spread everywhere then the FOI issue really needs to be resolved.

KARVELAS: We only have 30 seconds answer this but you can do it, on industrial relations which is of course your portfolio, I know Michaelia Cash is acting in the role and will meet with crossbenchers. One Nation will move an amendment to the government's IR bill so that casuals are offered a right to request conversion to permanent work after months not 12. Is that a good change?

BURKE: It is better than what the bills says now but not as good as if the bill does not go through at all. This bill fails a very simple test. We said it had to deliver secure employment and decent pay. This makes it easier for employment to be casualised and easier for people to have their pay cut. So the best outcome would be for the bill to be stopped.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining me.

BURKE: Thanks, PK.

ENDS