TRANSCRIPT: TV INTERVIEW - SKY NEWS - MARCH 25, 2021

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SKY NEWS
THURSDAY, 25 MARCH 2021

SUBJECTS: Arts funding; JobKeeper; sexual assault allegations.

LAURA JAYES, HOST: Tony Burke, thanks very much for your time. JobKeeper was always going in end. It was always going to be temporary. If you don't agree it should end now, when?

BURKE: Well, the challenge at the moment is we've got businesses that should be completely viable and the only reason they're not is because of public health orders, and public health orders that are there for a good reason. As long as you have businesses that would otherwise be viable, that therefore you want them to exist on the other side of the pandemic, I'm not sure why you'd spend nearly a year taking them across the desert and then getting this close to the finish line and pushing them over the cliff. That's what it is for a whole lot of the arts and entertainment industry. These are commercial businesses that have the capacity to succeed. And the only reason they can't at the moment, and that they need support, is because of government orders. Now, if that's the circumstance, then that was the reason government support was offered in the first place. And it's difficult to see why in the current environment those same arguments don't apply for the arts and entertainment sectors, similar to hospitality.

JAYES: On that logic Mr Burke, do you say JobKeeper should extend until international borders are reopened?

BURKE: Well certainly for the arts and entertainment sector, the argument for it continue to be there now, and to be there next month and the month after, are identical to the reasons that were there when it was first established. Now there's many sections of the arts and entertainment industry that are not reliant on the international borders.

JAYES: Domestic borders are open now.

BURKE: Yeah but the social distancing rules still make it very difficult for many venues to be able to operate, very difficult for them to be able to operate in the normal way. So that hits festivals, it hits a whole lot of entertainment venues. And think about this. So for an industry like the live music industry. If we have a number of venues fall over, they don't automatically reappear on the other side of the pandemic. We lose infrastructure it’ll then take five or six years to get back. That's a permanent hit, simply because the government wasn't willing to hold the line for the final few months.

JAYES: What's wrong with the direct targeted support that we've seen? Why does it have to be JobKeeper?

BURKE: Okay, I'll say two things about what's announced today. First of all, the concept of doing more than they were going to do, of course that’s better than where it would have been yesterday. But they made an announcement around the middle of last year, and the announcement was $250 million for the sector. We found out in Senate estimates the other day, that of that $250 million announced last year $65 million has been spent. So roughly 25 per cent has been spent of what was announced during the toughest time the industry has ever faced. So another announcement - well it only works at all if the money is delivered. And for the exact sorts of programs they're talking about today, when they announced them last year - $250 million announced, $65 million by now has gone out the door.

JAYES: Is that because people aren't applying, or they’re not aware of the program? Or are you saying it should just flow into their pockets even if they don't apply?

BURKE: It's not for lack of applications, the government’s just been incredibly slow getting money out the door. And a grants program will never be as effective as a wage subsidy program. That's the reality. There'll be a whole lot of, you know, even if you say all of it, yes, smaller businesses can now apply. The reality is, a grants program is always going to favour the bigger operations, it’ll always be harder for the smaller end of the industry.

JAYES: Okay, let's look at the issues that are persisting in Parliament's right around the country. Now we have under parliamentary privilege, a minister, a parliamentary secretary I should say, Michael Johnson being accused of raping a sex worker. Are we are now in a situation where parliamentary privilege and the media are replacing our justice system.

BURKE: I think the answer to that is no. The justice system is responsible for whether or not criminal penalties apply. And that remains the case. There is a proper question that gets asked in Parliaments around the around the country, and I suppose around the world, as to whether or not someone's a fit and proper person to be in a particular role. Now the criminal justice system - that's not its job, its job is to determine criminal penalties. And it's the job of a combination of inquiries that get held independently and separately, as well as the work of the media and the work that happens in parliamentary debate, of testing whether or not someone's a fit and proper person to remain in the role. And that goes to public confidence. It’s completely separate to the criminal questions and the justice questions.

JAYES: But if a criminal allegation is being levelled against you, for example, and it's untested, but it's aired in parliament or the media, what happens? Where is the line I guess? We're all uncomfortable with this burden of proof, but it's obviously a product of victims feeling that the justice system isn't working for them.

BURKE: It's a product of a few things, I think. And at the moment, there is no doubt at the moment the lines are changing. There's no doubt and the reason they're changing is because for too long issues have been swept under the carpet, issues haven't been brought forward. And they should have been. And yes what you refer to as well, there is an understandable frustration with the justice system even at the criminal level as well.

JAYES: So what do we do now? As a lawmaker, as someone who sits in parliament, this is one of those issues that is not going away and things need to change. But doesn't that work need to be done at a policy level in state and federal parliament's about changing the justice system to be more fit for purpose? So you don't have these issues being aired through the media?

BURKE: The issues of reform of the justice system, clearly those things will always need to be - and that argument is quite separate to anything that's been raised in Parliament over the last few weeks - you've had a series of people for a long time including the Australian of the Year talking about changes that need to be made to the justice system. The separate issue though that I don't think we can get away from, is there are times when you need to have an independent investigation into whether someone is a fit and proper person to hold office. And that is because we can't pretend that the only standard in whether or not you're fit for public office is whether or not the courts decide you need to go to jail. We need to have a fit and proper person standard.

JAYES: So if you’re accused of something you should stand aside?

BURKE: My view is an assessment needs to be made by someone other than the person accused themselves as to the gravity and the veracity of the allegation in the first instance. And then there is a threshold where the person then stands aside while an independent investigation takes place into whether or not they’re a fit and proper person. I think that's the logical thing to do. I think anything short of that creates a situation where the public just ask, as I think the public are asking at the moment when they look at what's being talked about in Canberra, they just say what on earth is going on in that building?

JAYES: What on earth is going on in that building Tony Burke? Five weeks ago, we had Brittany Higgins come forward with an allegation of rape. In the last couple of days we’ve heard of staffers masturbating on desks, and now Peta Credlin reveals she saw evidence of orgies, including Labor staffers.

BURKE: I’ll say two things in terms of that Laura. In the first, in terms of the allegations of the behaviour of different members of staff, I only know what I've seen through the media on that. I think it's offensive and it's gross. I think what happened to Brittany Higgins is also of a completely different order. And I've been really frustrated when I've seen some people have a stronger emotional reaction to the staffer allegations than to the allegations of rape. What happened to Brittany Higgins, and any allegation of a sexual assault, needs to be dealt with with the utmost seriousness. And we can't have the pattern that I'm starting to see where whenever a woman makes an allegation and the man strenuously denies it, we just say, “oh, well, it's denied. Let's all move on”. We cannot have that. And we've seen with Brittany Higgins for example, out the front of parliament, in a more powerful speech outside the parliament than I've ever heard inside the parliament, Brittany Higgins said that that while the Prime Minister was publicly apologising to her, members of his team were out there undermining her loved ones. Now, we've asked the Prime Minister now I think 13 times whether or not that’s true. He won't even say whether or not that’s true, he won’t even say whether he's checked with his staff. Now, you know, if we're going to have some sort of step-change in the nation, which is being demanded, then we need to change the way we deal with these issues. The Prime Minister needs to say, “well if that allegation’s made, I'm going to ask my staff, I'm going to investigate that”. When you get a difference of opinion between what the Speaker of the House in Tasmania says to what Eric Abetz says, you don’t just say oh well it’s denied therefore that’s the end of the matter. You have to be able to have some sort of investigation. The fact that a male denies something - if that’s meant to be the end of the matter then women haven’t moved forward one millimetre through these last months.

JAYES: Tony Burke, we’ll have to leave it there, thanks so much.

ENDS