MINISTER TONY BURKE - TRANSCRIPT - ABC RN BREAKFAST WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS - TUESDAY, 30 JULY 2024

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

RADIO INTERVIEW, ABC RN BREAKFAST WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS

TUESDAY, 30 JULY 2024

SUBJECTS: Boat arrivals, High Court decision, Student Visas, OSB & CrowdStrike

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tony Burke, welcome to the program.

TONY BURKE, MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS, MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION AND MULTICULTURAL AFFAIRS, MINISTER FOR CYBER SECURITY AND MINISTER FOR THE ARTS: G'day. Good to be chatting to you.

KARVELAS: Did you want this job? Do you see it as a promotion?

BURKE: Some people have sort of been sending me messages, saying ‘congratulations’ and I've got to say, I don't see it that way at all. It's very much not a celebratory thing. It's very much a sense of deep responsibility, a sense of resolve. It's a serious job. I loved what I was doing and getting people pay rises, was at the center of cost of living. This is a serious job that has to be done. I've worked in the area previously when I was last a Minister. Keeping Australians safe is absolutely essential.

KARVELAS: Well, let's go to your record as immigration Minister back in 2013, the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, so basically, your shadow, James Paterson, says you're a failed immigration Minister from the Rudd/Gillard era. And on your watch he says 83 boats carrying nearly 7000 people showed up in just 80 days. How do you respond to that charge? They are painting you as a guy who's done this when lots of boats were arriving.

BURKE: I'm really glad you put that to me because their first attempt to have a go at me on policy is to provide just the most horrific misrepresentation you can imagine.

It's true, when I first was given the job, that the number of people arriving by boat was at an all-time high. What they fail to mention is the difference between what happened when I arrived and what happened by the time I left.

After about three weeks, we'd found a way to completely change the policy. In the seven weeks that followed, there was a 90% reduction. 90% reduction in the number of people putting their lives at risk at sea. That is the sharpest reduction there has ever been and that was the impact that happened.

KARVELAS: But it was from a very high watermark. With respect, Minister, because it had. I mean, border security had become out of control. Right?

BURKE: Yeah, but I'm not sure how the situation on arrival is a representation of the record? And it was a 90% fall in the number of people putting their lives at risk at sea. I reckon in terms of missing details for the Liberal Party, that's a bit of an oversight to not go at all to what difference was made by me being in that portfolio.

KARVELAS: Ok, fair enough. You are at the 10th Indonesia Australian Ministerial Council on Law and Security. Is people smuggling and our border security on the agenda?

BURKE: Yeah, it is. It's a really important relationship with Indonesia and obviously there's a lot happening here at 75 years of our diplomatic relations with them. Cooperation with Indonesia is fundamental to a whole range of national security issues.

We'll be talking about the shared national security challenges we have. Issues of radicalisation, including online, have very much been changing at a pace.

There are issues of cyber security, where cooperation between the countries is very important and we want to be able to provide whatever assistance we can in dealing with cyber security. Our systems, for example, in how we dealt with CrowdStrike only very, very recently. While that wasn't a cyber-attack, it wasn't a bad demonstration of the approach that Australia has now developed on this and developed under Clare O'Neil and is absolutely world leading.

Obviously, as well, conversations about people smuggling. I was in Indonesia meeting with them on people smuggling issues back in 2013. Back then, my counterpart was Marty Natalegawa, who I was meeting with. This time, it's coordinating Minister Hadi, and those conversations are always very important.

KARVELAS: Now, one of the issues that's been raised is that you might have too much on. You're keeping the arts portfolio as well. You're leader of the Government in the House. How are you going to deal with what is, you know, a couple of different Ministers jobs? In the past, it was Clare O'Neil and Andrew Giles dealing with Home Affairs and Immigration.

BURKE: Yeah, and across the portfolios that I have, the Prime Minister's put together a team of six people. There's myself as the lead Minister, there's two Assistant Ministers and there's three different envoys that are working with that.

While there's been a fair bit of attention to me being the lead Minister, the fact that we have a team that will work really effectively across the full range of issues gives me a very high degree of confidence of how we'll handle this.

The Assistant Ministers that have been assigned, both Julian Hill and Matthew Thistlethwaite, are people I've worked with for many years now, and I couldn't be happier with the team I've been given.

KARVELAS: So, you'll be leaning on them heavily. Are you suggesting. I mean, explain to me how you see it working.

BURKE: Everybody will be working nonstop; everybody will be working flat out on this. I've already met with each of the Assistant Ministers. I haven't met with all the envoys yet, because they obviously don't go to the same swearing in ceremony. And I had to get on a plane rather quickly to get across to Indonesia. But I've had the meetings with the Assistant Ministers. We've started assigning different parts of the role very specific jobs that people can get started on immediately while I'm over here. The coordination of that and making sure that everybody's working flat out is the way to make sure that we're delivering for the Australian people the way they’ll need us to.

I must say, listening to the lead in while I was waiting to come on the line on the Olympics reminded me that this will be an Olympics that I don't think I'll get much of a chance to watch. So, I'll be grateful for the updates each morning.

KARVELAS: Well, we'll send them to you. Yes. Some specifics which have been very thorny issues in this portfolio. Will you review who in the cohort of 150 foreign nationals released under that high court ruling are under preventative detention orders? That's been a huge issue.

BURKE: Obviously at the moment, on any of these issues, I'll only be able to give you pretty high level. We've continued the briefings on the plane. So, the Secretary of my department and the National Cyber Security Coordinator and the Commander of the Maritime Border Command have all travelled with me, but 24 hours ago I had a different portfolio.

In terms of those individuals, my priority is keeping people safe. My absolute priority is keeping people safe. We've started to have some conversations about some of the different legal challenges that are being tried and what we need to do to make sure that the community is kept safe here. Obviously, no one wanted the High Court decision. We fought the high court decision and what we have to do now is, within the confines of what we've been given by the high court, make sure that we leave absolutely no stone unturned in keeping people safe.

KARVELAS: So, are the cases being reviewed?

BURKE: You've got the community Safety board that does the review and I think taking into account the recommendations that they give is absolutely paramount. They provide the recommendations on what's required.

KARVELAS: Yeah, but the Prime Minister has criticised their recommendations, as you know, in the Perth case. So, if they make a recommendation that he's condemned, how are you going to deal with that conundrum?

BURKE: If I start with the absolute priority of keeping people safe, and I will leave no stone unturned in keeping people safe, that's a principle I'll be applying.

There are attempts already from some people, for example, with ankle bracelets and curfews, wanting to be able to fight those. And I've started the conversations immediately with the department on what we need to do to make sure that we have the absolute maximum level of protection for the community and that we're doing the full belts and braces of everything that's possible to maximise our legal position.

KARVELAS: That's interesting. The laws passed before Christmas require ankle bracelet monitoring devices be issued to these detainees released in the cohort. But there's been, you know, reporting about how many actually are subjected to them. Would you like to see more of them subjected to the ankle bracelets?

BURKE: I haven't gone through 150 cases within the last 24 hours, as you'll appreciate, but I've given you my absolute priority, my determination there, and that no stone will be left unturned when it comes to community safety.

I regard my obligation here as being a strong obligation to the community for people who have come on visas and while they are on visas - you're a guest in the country when you're on a visa – they have committed violent acts of crime. Those individuals are not a priority. They're not people I have sympathy for and they're people where no stone will be left unturned.

KARVELAS: Will you need new legislation? There was going to be new legislation. It was kind of set aside after another High Court ruling ended up being better for the government. Are you looking at any law reform? Are you happy that the laws are doing what they need to do?

BURKE: I think it's too early for me to be able to give anything definitive on that. Suffice to say, I've already asked those questions and started that conversation with the department and having a look at it. I'm very mindful that this is a highly litigated area. You never get to a point in this area of policy, which even before I was Minister, there was a time when I was Shadow Minister, right back to when the Howard Government was there. This is a policy area that never stands still. It's always litigated. There's always attempts to move the boundaries and what you have to make sure is that your resolve is completely clear. That's probably, at this stage, the best I can offer you.

KARVELAS: Ok. Just a couple of other things, Minister, since I've got you. Surveillance flights, according to a report in the Australian to detect illegal boat arrivals off Australia's north west coast have driven dropped by 22% in two years. Is that something that worries you and you plan to address?

BURKE: Look, when I saw that story come online late yesterday. We’d just landed in Bali, and I had a quick meeting with Rear Admiral Brett Sonter, who I referred to, who's travelling with me - the Commander - and asked him about this. He assured me that what that statistic refers to is a single contractor, that what they have been doing is to use more than that service. There are other security assets which we have, which have been deployed. While the article refers to a particular percentage, that's a reference to a single contractor, not to the total security assets that are being deployed.

KARVELAS: Are you satisfied with the surveillance flight numbers?

BURKE: I asked that exact question and the Commander assured me that what is required for surveillance is being done.

KARVELAS: Ok. James Paterson, who's your opposite number, says because you're under pressure from the Muslim Votes group in your seat and you have expressed views of solidarity for Palestinian people and have been outspoken on that issue, he says you can't be trusted to ensure proper identity and security checks are conducted for the thousands of Gaza residents who want to come to Australia. That's obviously a big accusation and, you know, you haven't yet assessed any of these, but just give me a sense of how you manage what he's framing as a contradiction in the way that you have to approach this job.

BURKE: Can I just say what an idiotic comment from somebody who's clearly never been a Minister. He's made up a way of looking at statistics about me and then that sort of rubbish. If that's the character of my shadow, then we'll just deal with what comes at us.

The issue of making sure that you deal with security checks is fundamental to the immigration program. I have never hesitated to reject visas or to cancel visas. Absolutely never hesitated to. He'll probably never refer to that statistic, because it's just irrefutable if you go back through the records as what I did last time and the sort of decisions that will happen under my watch again.

Any decision, regardless of where someone comes from, has to have your appropriate security and identity checks. Always has to happen. If I'm going to be in a debate of misinformation where somebody just makes stuff up, then I can see why Peter Dutton chose him.

KARVELAS: You haven't actually made any of these assessments yet, so it's a preemptive statement from James Paterson about the way you might see it.

BURKE: It's an idiotic statement and I'll treat lies with the contempt they deserve.

KARVELAS: Okay. There's a few other issues too. A push to overturn current policy settings which limit the number of international students. Something which the nation's top universities say it's damaging the sector. It's having huge economic repercussions for them. Will you consider changing this?

BURKE: They've said in the media that they want to meet with me. I always meet with stakeholders, so I'll meet with them, I'm very relaxed about that. But certainly, I support the Government's policy and we've made the policy for the right reasons.

If there's tweaking that they want to talk to me about, we'll have the conversation, but it's not a disposition that I come with. The integrity of the student visa program really did need to be cleaned up. The decisions that were made there by Clare O'Neil, by Andrew Giles, by Jason Clare, are all decisions that were made in the national interest for the right reasons and I support them.

KARVELAS: As part of the reshuffle, Australia's spy agency, ASIO, will move from Home Affairs to the Attorney-General's department. Has the Home Affairs department now been completely gutted from its original purpose? It's nothing like that, is it?

BURKE: It's an agency rather than part of the department itself anyway. A lot of the commentary has referred to the department and ASIO was never part of the department. To have ASIO be able to be placed within the same portfolio as the Australian Federal Police is logical, and I'm completely supportive of that decision.

I saw Mr Paterson, who you referred to a couple of times, claim in one of the newspaper reports that somehow this creates a problem for whether my department will be able to get briefings and information from ASIO, I don't think he understands how ASIO works. While ASIO logically, should be exactly where the Australian Federal police are, they also are an agency that is constantly briefing other agencies. Constantly. So, the concept that somehow there'll be a lack of information to Home Affairs, I can get why someone who's inexperienced might make a comment like that, but it's just not true.

KARVELAS: Tony Burke, just final question. The role of Home Affairs and Immigration Minister, as you've described it, and is required in the political discourse we're in, is one of a pretty tough person that has to have a pretty tough persona. You've kept the Arts portfolio and you'll be fighting in your own electorate to retain your seat. Being pushed on issues around the Middle East conflict. How are you going to do all that? I mean, these are very difficult, different personas, aren't they?

BURKE: No, you just be true to yourself. You just be true to yourself.

I've lived my whole life in my community. I love my community and the community knows who I am and I've always treated it as a marginal seat. I'll treat it the same way this time.

The national security portfolios, I've been in the broad area before when I was Immigration Minister and you need to have strong principles of making sure that you put community safety first and that's consistent with who I am.

I love the arts. Always have loved the arts. I've effectively been our spokesperson for almost all of the last decade on arts. I was previous Arts Minister. I've been determined to make sure that the sector is seen with more respect within the Australian community and the Australian Government and we've delivered that with cultural policy.

I think the answer to all these things of, ‘oh, it’s different personas’, no, no, no, you just be true to yourself and the moment you try to make up some sort of persona, you'll get found out pretty quickly. You look at the history of me, I've never tried to be anyone other than who I am.

KARVELAS: Tony Burke, thank you for giving us your first interview as well in this new portfolio. I appreciate your time.

BURKE: Great conversation. Thanks heaps, see you.

ENDS