MINISTER TONY BURKE - TRANSCRIPT - SKY NEWS, SUNDAY AGENDA WITH ANDREW CLENNELL - SUNDAY, 8 AUGUST 2024

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

SKY NEWS, SUNDAY AGENDA WITH ANDREW CLENNELL

SUNDAY, 8 AUGUST 2024

SUBJECTS: Binskin report, Visas, Antisemitism Envoy, previous Immigration record, travel to Indonesia, High Court of Australia, ASIO, CFMEU

ANDREW CLENNELL: Let me start with this visit by Peter Dutton to Israel, and the Opposition's attitude to the Binskin report. What's your view of Mr Dutton's visit and my report that the Netanyahu Government believes the Albanese Government is not supporting them enough?

TONY BURKE, MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS, MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION AND MULTICULTURAL AFFAIRS, MINISTER FOR CYBER SECURITY AND MINISTER FOR THE ARTS: Look, in fairness I don't spend a moment of time thinking about Peter Dutton's overseas travel. As you'd appreciate - and I think you've personally previously reported on - my focus immediately has been on the engagement with Indonesia. That's where I went to straight away, it was my first priority. Wherever Peter Dutton travels in the world is a matter for Peter Dutton.

CLENNELL: What do you make of that suggestion by opposition sources to me, there should never have been a Binskin report into this death?

BURKE: We certainly are grateful that we got the cooperation that had been demanded by the Australian Government. But I think what Penny Wong said on receipt of the report is really important, there are obligations under international humanitarian law to protect civilians and to protect the distribution of aid and of aid workers. Plainly that didn't happen.

We condemn the strikes that caused the killing of Zomi Frankcom, and the Government continues to press with the Israeli Ambassador and through all our representations to make sure that all appropriate responses are followed through and considered, including whether or not there should be criminal penalties.

CLENNELL: One of the first things you'll have to deal with as Home Affairs and Immigration Minister is refugee applications from Palestinians, because more than 2,000 Palestinians have been given visitor visas here since the conflict began.

What's your attitude towards this? How many of these people should receive refugee status? Would it have been easier if a safe haven process had been set up or formal refugee applications, rather than giving so many visitor visas out?

BURKE: People arrived on visitor visas and the Government was right to use that visa. It was the easiest visa to be able to deal with in a situation of absolute immediate crisis, and we also at the same time were involved in making sure we could get Australian citizens out safely, and crossing the border was not something that was easily done.

So we're now in a situation where over time those visas are reaching their expiring date and there's a decision of Government that hasn't been taken yet - so I don't have an announcement to be able to make - but a decision of Government as to what the next step is for those individuals.

Obviously in all of this we're in a situation, as is every country in the world, where people have fled, where no country in the world is sending people back to Gaza at the moment for obvious reasons. We have to work through what is the appropriate visa to be able to consider for these individuals.

CLENNELL: You're inclined to let them stay then?

BURKE: Well, certainly no country in the world would send people back to Gaza at the moment. No country in the world would do that. We have to work through what happens as the visas that people are currently on expire, but it's not a decision that's been made, and there's no announcement to make at the moment.

Also, I’m not interested in the-

CLENNELL: Are you considering safe haven visas or is some sort of permanent protection more likely in your considerations at the moment?

BURKE: This is exactly what I was about to say, Andrew, so we're on the same path here. When you consider what these individuals have gone through, you've got lots of people who've experienced serious trauma, they've suffered great loss of family and friends with the killings that have occurred over there, and they're also in a situation where for many of them the homes where they used to live are now rubble.

For those individuals, I just don't think it's fair for me to be speculating in advance of being able to give a bit more assurance as to what the decision is. To be throwing a whole lot of options up in the air when only one of them ends up becoming the decision, I really think the responsible thing to do is to wait until we've made a decision on the pathway forward and then make an announcement.

CLENNELL: All right. Senate estimates has heard some of these people had their security clearances done in 24 hours, some in an hour. Is that good enough?

BURKE: I've made clear from the start that I don't make compromises on national security. I never have, never will.

With every visa assessment - including these ones - you take the national security advice absolutely serious because the safety of Australians is paramount. I don't put other issues ahead of community safety.

CLENNELL: Okay. Do you acknowledge that often in this kind of process there will be plenty of families who will be good citizens of Australia, they'll be escaping war, but you can also get the odd bad apple, people who are supporters of Hamas who might bring extremism into Australia, does that concern you?

BURKE: Well, this is why you don't rush things, this is why when people have wanted me to rush through a decision, I don't. I take community safety really seriously. It's one of the most significant roles not only of Home Affairs, but previously when I've been Immigration Minister.

The assessments are given by Government, there are processes that happen. The level of security assessment becomes higher and higher the longer the stay on a Visa is, and that's how I'll be operating; it's how I always have. I've seen some fairly bizarre speculation saying that I would do the opposite of what I've always done but I can't stop people from making things up.

CLENNELL: Well, just on that, do you feel any sort of conflict in terms of this given the large amount of support in your electorate for the Palestinian cause? Do you feel you'll have any conflict in your role because of that?

BURKE: I really don't. I really don't. Even in an electorate like mine, there is no bigger issue than cost of living. There is nothing more important that I would have done for cost of living than the wage rises that I was responsible for in my previous job.

But once again, like with this job, you don't make those decisions based on your electorate, you make your decisions based on the national interest. That's a commitment you make when you're a Minister, is to put the national interest first. It's what I've always done.

The community here knows me well. They've known me for 20 years. They know who I am and the way I operate is not about to change.

CLENNELL: Got Ed Husic in the Sunday Telegraph today saying the government maybe should consider sanctions against the Netanyahu Government. What do you make of that?

BURKE: The most important priority right now that I see is to make sure that we get an immediate ceasefire, that civilians are protected, that we make sure the dire humanitarian crisis is dealt with and that international humanitarian law must be kept to and respected. They're my absolute priorities.

CLENNELL: What do you make of Israel's action with the assassination of the Hamas leader in Iran?

BURKE: Obviously when a terrorist leader is assassinated, that’s something that you don't find the Australian Government opposing, in terms of detail as to what's been said on that - beyond that - I don't have anything at hand.

You’d appreciate most of this interview's been on foreign affairs, and this isn’t not what I've spent the last week being briefed on, but we don't go out defending terrorists. It's as simple as that.

CLENNELL: Yeah, you've been quite busy. Now last week a worker was counselled for refusing to serve a Jewish person at Officeworks. Do you think that worker should have lost their job rather than just received counselling?

BURKE: The first thing is people shouldn't be refused service for who they are, they absolutely should never be refused service for who they are. I had a talk on coming back from Indonesia with Jillian Segal, the Antisemitism Envoy, who's been dealing quite directly with this, and I wouldn’t mind taking you through some of what's happened.

The worker involved, I understand, was given a formal final warning from Officeworks, was then taken to the Holocaust Museum, and a lot of people wouldn't appreciate, but should appreciate that when you go through the Holocaust Museum, a whole lot of the people who are there as guides, you know, they're not professional curators, they are survivors of the Holocaust. I've been through there myself. They will take you through the story of how the beginning of a lot of what happened there began with people being refused service.

That individual worker, I think, has now, not only issued an apology, but also has a much deeper understanding of the issue, and Officeworks, and I understand Wesfarmers generally, are now working specifically with Jillian Segal on making sure that they can get the right policies in place so that their staff are properly trained to avoid this happening.

In terms of the way forward, I don't start with what's the punishment, I start with how can we best stamp out antisemitism, how can we do that? When I look at the process that's been followed by Officeworks, I look at the change in view of that particular worker in terms of the circumstances and depth of understanding, and the good work that's being done by the Antisemitism Envoy.

I actually think throughout all of this, for the horrific video that we saw, we've in fact moved forward in that long process, which is so important, of stamping out antisemitism.

I've never had any truck with any form of hate speech, I've dedicated a hell of a lot of my career to making sure we have the strongest protections against hate speech. Establishing the Antisemitism Envoy has been a step in the right direction in being able to stamp out hate speech, and I'm really happy with the work that Jillian's done.

CLENNELL: All right. Let's talk about your appointment now. Take us through why Anthony Albanese told you he's given you these Home Affairs and Immigration roles. Was this something he approached you about months ago?

BURKE: I don't have the dates, I don't have the timeline, but certainly when I was sounded out my response was simply, I was not asking to move. I was pretty happy in the middle of the cost-of-living debate with getting people pay rises, but if he wanted me to do this job, I would do it for him, and that was the nature of the conversation.

I've no doubt the fact of what happened when I was last in the role, where the number of people arriving by boat was at an all-time high, and over the course of seven weeks after Kevin Rudd and myself changed the policy, we saw the sharpest reduction that has ever happened, which was a 90 per cent reduction in the weekly figures over those seven weeks. I've no doubt that that was one of the issues that was on his mind in considering if there were to be moves that this role would fall to me.

CLENNELL: Just on that, I wanted to raise with you, you've heard, you know, a fair bit of commentary from the Opposition on this. They're into you concerning your record as Immigration Minister and the Rudd Government, 6,000 people came by boat after you became Minister.

You reinstated the Pacific Solution, that's very true, but they instituted boat turn backs upon reaching government, which they argue was more effective. Tony Abbott thinks you should apologise for your time as Immigration Minister. What's your reaction to that?

TONY BURKE: You don't apologise for reducing the number of people putting their lives at risk on the high seas by 90 per cent. You don't apologise for a fundamental achievement that was significant to strengthening our borders and was also significant to saving lives. There's a lot floating around at the moment. I know you've got Andrew Hastie on next, but there's some really weird arguments that the Opposition have thrown around.

On the total figures they completely forget the radical fall in the number of arrivals that happened in those seven weeks from the change of policy until the election. They're making a bizarre claim now that somehow using defence assets in surveillance is new.

I mean Andrew Hastie, your next guest, has made that claim, even though for the last four to five years we’ve used the P8s that we currently use, the Orion P3s were used going back 25 years. John Howard, the people who boarded the Tampa were members of the SAS. The cooperation with the Defence Force on the protection of our borders is nothing new.

CLENNELL: Yeah.

BURKE: If I put it this way, Andrew, in summary: I can't stop them making things up. It doesn't particularly bother me. If they want to trash their own credibility, good luck to them.

CLENNELL: All right. Well, Andrew Hastie's listening so we'll be sure to put that to him later. I can see him in the screen on my right‑hand side here.

Now, look, I assume your visit to Indonesia straight after the announcement of your getting the job wasn't lined up overnight. How long was that in train?

BURKE: It was a visit already scheduled by Clare O'Neil, and when I was told about it, I thought we absolutely have to keep this commitment.

CLENNELL: Okay.

BURKE: It wasn't only the Bilateral with the Indonesian Coordinating Minister, but we also had a formal meeting that occurs involving the region, Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, New Zealand were there, Singapore and Thailand. It was a really important gathering. Obviously, in my portfolio there's no relationship more important than Indonesia.

CLENNELL: Indeed.

BURKE: When I arrived it was already really good, it was clear that there was already a warm relationship between the Coordinating Minister and Clare O'Neil, I was able to build on that, and by the time I left, I couldn't be happier with the relationship we've got with Indonesia.

CLENNELL: All right. Almost out of time, just got a couple of quick things I want to put to you. Why does ASIO need to go to the Attorney General and not you? And how are you going to stay in charge of counter terrorism and foreign interference when you don't even have control of the main agencies?

BURKE: The first thing is it's really important for ASIO to be with the AFP and historically they've both been there. There was an aberration for about six years where they were over in Home Affairs, but that historically has been the home of ASIO.

There's been a claim from Mr Paterson that somehow this reduces my access to ASIO. I'm certainly not feeling that. On coming back I immediately had a formal briefing with Mike Burgess, the head of ASIO. Since that time in the last couple of days we've had two further phone calls. There's no lack of access, there's no lack of advice.

I think there's just a lack of understanding from some of the frontbenchers in the Opposition of how Government works. I don't think they're necessarily being menacing, I think it's just a lack of understanding. An agency like ASIO constantly briefs all the relevant departments no matter where it's housed.

CLENNELL: Is a lot of this restructure about a belief Michael Pezzullo had too much power, and what's your view of his tenure?

BURKE: I haven't spent a minute thinking about it, to be honest, Andrew. I respect there'll be a whole lot of commentary. Good luck to people with the commentary on it. Understand, I've got a big load and looking forward as to what's to come next I think's where I should keep my focus.

CLENNELL: A big issue that you'll obviously have to deal with is management of hundreds of criminal immigration detainees released because of the NZYQ decision. Do you have an intention of pursuing preventative detention orders, how many and when?

BURKE: As many as I legally can ‑ we're looking at the legislation. There is a lot of work that's being done in building up the cases. Once the High Court made the decision that it made, the threshold became high to be able to successfully launch a case. I asked about it in my first briefings because I'm really concerned about it.

Let's not forget, every one of these individuals is an individual that the Government's position was for them to be detained. We had the High Court effectively change where the precedents had been on that issue, that's the High Court's right, we've got to respect it, but in terms of community safety, every power that we have to increase community safety, I intend to take. But you've got to make sure that the evidence is there to be able to meet the thresholds of the legislation. I was briefed on that right from the start. It's a focus of mine.

CLENNELL: I mean will you be locking up 10, 20, what have you been told about how possible it is to get cases up?

BURKE: The whole concept of this High Court decision and the change was that it's no longer the Minister who does it, it's the court that does it. That was the fundamental shift that happened, and that was why we had to have legislation, so that it's now an application-

CLENNELL: All right. But how many applications are you going to try?

BURKE: Every application that meets the threshold, as soon as it meets the threshold, I'll be proceeding.

CLENNELL: And how many do you expect that to be? You must have been briefed on how many at the moment appear possible.

BURKE: Until they meet the threshold they're not possible, and so I'm making sure that every bit of work is being done for as many as possible to be able to meet the threshold. But there's a threshold of evidence, the work has to be done no matter who is in office. In any action that's determined by a court, you want to make sure you do everything you can to be successful. It's not a media stunt. You don't do community safety by media release, you do it by successful actions, and that's what I intend to take.

CLENNELL: And finally, just a question concerning your old job of Workplace Relations, the Fair Work Commission's court application for a takeover of the CFMEU, is there any part of you that regrets acceding to the CFMEU request to disband the Australian Building and Construction Commission?

BURKE: All the bad behaviour that's come out happened while that thing was there. John Setka rose to increase power while the ABCC was there. By every definition it at the very least didn't work, and at worst pushed people into their corners and created a situation where the more militant were always going to become the most powerful.

It was a dismal failure, and once again - I just referred to another area about trying to be tough by media release - if the outcomes of the ABCC were the wrong people increasing their power and everything that we're talking about happened while it was there, it was hardly a tough cop on the beat.

CLENNELL: Tony Burke, thanks so much for your time.

BURKE: Great to talk to you.

ENDS