TRANSCRIPT – TV INTERVIEW - ABC 7.30 WITH SARAH FERGUSON - MONDAY 17 FEBRUARY 2025
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
ABC 7.30 WITH SARAH FERGUSON
MONDAY, 17 FEBRUARY 2025
TOPICS: Federal Government's deal with Nauru to settle three members of NZYQ cohort and Creative Australia's decision to rescind Khaled Sabsabi's invitation to represent Australia at the Venice Biennale.
SARAH FERGUSON: The Federal Government has reached a deal with Nauru to settle three violent criminals. The men are part of a cohort released from immigration detention following a High Court ruling in 2023. All had committed crimes and spent time in prison.
Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke is also Minister for the Arts, and in that portfolio, he has responsibility for Creative Australia, whose board is in turmoil after withdrawing the artistic team they'd picked for the prestigious Venice Biennale in 2026. Tony Burke joins me now. Welcome to the program, Minister.
TONY BURKE: Hi, Sarah.
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, starting on NZYQ, the name of this cohort of released former criminals, did you stop to question the morality of sending a murderer and other serious criminals to a tiny, impoverished country like Nauru?
TONY BURKE: Well, Nauru approached us, so we put forward the legislation that allowed or made it clear that you could send people to a third country. You've got to remember we're talking about people who have had their visas cancelled. There are particular reasons, different for each person, why we can't return them to their country of origin and so -- but they have no right to remain in Australia. So, we set up laws that just made clear if, if another country was willing to take them, then they would be able to be sent there.
Now, while that legislation was being debated in the Parliament, Nauru came to us. They're a sovereign nation and they made a decision that they believed that an arrangement of this sort there was a way of it being in their national interest. And I respect that.
SARAH FERGUSON: What's the quid pro quo? How much are you paying Nauru?
TONY BURKE: Well, as you know, I'm not going to answer that one, but I'll explain just something on cost, because the costs of arrangements like this don't get disclosed, and that's been the case for decades.
SARAH FERGUSON: Why not? In this particular case, you're talking about sending three people. There's 270 odd others in this cohort. It's going to be a large impost. Why don't we have the right to know how much?
TONY BURKE: It's part of the arrangement with Nauru that's entered into is that these issues will be kept confidential. But let me just say something about cost, if I may, which is to say it's not like this is cost free now - right now, under Operation AEGIS, there is a lot of money that is spent having to monitor these individuals in the community. Before that, there was a lot of cost in them being kept in detention. Before that, them being kept in prison. And for these individuals, the greatest cost to Australia will never be the dollars, it'll be the crimes that they committed.
SARAH FERGUSON: Nonetheless--
TONY BURKE: And so, it's not like we're comparing--
SARAH FERGUSON: Forgive me for interrupting. None of those facts obviate a simple request to understand how much it's costing Australia to send three criminals to Nauru.
TONY BURKE: Yeah. And I'm giving you the same answer that Australian Ministers have given for 20 years on arrangements with Nauru in terms of the cost.
SARAH FERGUSON: Is it the right answer, though?
TONY BURKE: Well, that if I didn't think it was, I wouldn't continue to give it. When you reach an agreement with a country in confidence, you retain the confidentiality of those costs.
SARAH FERGUSON: Let me just come back to the first question, because you said that Nauru approached us, but that doesn't really answer the question about whether or not you faced with that offer, you stopped to question the morality of sending murderers and hardened criminals to a tiny, impoverished island like Nauru.
TONY BURKE: Well, can I - there are some people - I'm not sure which angle the question goes to. Can I just refer to one way that people often refer to the morality here as though there's something horrific about sending anyone to Nauru? There's a bit that can underlie that sort of attitude. It's not like we're evacuating the Nauruan population from Nauru. And this concept, that it's fine for them to live there, but it would be outrageous for anyone else to live there, including when they, as a nation, have decided they're willing to take them. It's a patronising attitude. You're right to put the question to me because it's something that a lot of people are asking, but I do think that there's some values there that are pretty condescending to Nauru when some of the advocates put that argument.
SARAH FERGUSON: How would you feel if these people in question reoffended on Nauru?
TONY BURKE: The same as people who are returned, even if they return to the country of their origin. You know, if people are sent anywhere in the world where people have their visas cancelled, it's always been the case that there's a chance of them reoffending. You need to remember, though, these are individuals who were never Australian citizens. Never.
Sometimes we're talking about individuals who have only lived in the community for a very, very short time for some of them. And sometimes you get people who the first time they were in the community was the same time they were committing a crime. The concept that Australia owes a particular obligation to these individuals, I really think is a stretch. We're talking about people who were not citizens, who don't have a right to a visa in Australia, who've committed crimes, and another country, Nauru, has said that they're willing to take them.
SARAH FERGUSON: I'd like to move on to the subject that I referenced at the beginning, which is the turmoil in the board of Creative Australia with regards to the artist Khaled Sabsabi. Now, as I said, he's been dumped from representing Australia at the prestigious Venice Biennale. You called him a gifted and extraordinary artist. Why has he been dumped and should they reverse the decision?
TONY BURKE: Well, first of all, I stand absolutely by what I've said about Khaled as an artist, and also Michael Dagostino, who was the curator as part of their partnership. He's an extraordinary curator as well, and Khaled is an extraordinary and gifted artist. I've seen some of his work over the years and yet the work that they were preparing to do at the Venice Biennale, I was really looking forward to, as I think everyone at Creative Australia was as well. I wasn't involved in his selection. Even though I don't know Khaled well, I've known Michael for some time, I wasn't involved in their selection. I wasn't involved in the decision that it be ceased.
I've had a view for a very long time that the Arts Minister should, and any politician should not interfere with decisions about artistic merit. The fact that I think he's an extraordinary and gifted artist is my view. I don't think that is a reason that he should be chosen or not chosen. I think it's really important that these decisions are made at arm's length. And I'm very proud with the board that governs Creative Australia, that it's had more artists appointed to it in various art forms than that board has had for a very long time.
SARAH FERGUSON: Yes, but it's now roiled by resignations and very great distress, clearly, coming out of the artistic community about this decision. Just back to my question. Given that you have that view about Khalid Sabsabi, do you think that Creative Australia has made a mistake and they should reverse the decision?
TONY BURKE: My view is that the decision should - the moment I give you my view on who they should choose, at that moment, there's Ministerial interference.
SARAH FERGUSON: It's not a question on who they should - sorry, Minister, but it's not a question on who they should choose. They made a choice. You endorsed the choice by saying you value the art of Khalid Sabsabi. Should they reverse their decision?
TONY BURKE: Well, in fairness, that comment I actually made after they'd reversed it. That comment that you've quoted, I made at the media conference I held yesterday. So, you know, I had - I was not involved, nor did I make comments encouraging them which artists they should choose. They'd made a decision as to, you know, not going ahead with that now. I think the worst thing that could happen now, would be for politicians to be adjudicating on it. It should be made at arm's length from politicians. I think that's so important. I saw what happened when George Brandis tried to take control of the funds for himself.
SARAH FERGUSON: Am I right in saying that you did speak to members of Creative Australia on Thursday before their snap board meeting, where they made the decision?
TONY BURKE: I've seen that published in the Sydney Morning Herald online in the last hour or two. The Herald didn't contact my office, and if they had contacted, they would have been told saying "members" plural is completely wrong. I contacted one person and one person only as soon as I came out of question time, and that was Adrian Collette. He's the CEO. And the reason I contacted him was questions had come up in the Senate about a particular work which normally - look, I don't get involved in the decisions, but when something's due to be announced, I get sent up a brief with, "what are the different works, what are the different issues that might be considered controversial?" That particular work had not been raised with me in any of the briefs and was clearly more controversial than anything that had been. So, I was shocked when I saw that it was there and I rang Adrian to find out what had happened. At that point, he had already determined that they were going to have a board meeting that night.
SARAH FERGUSON: Did you give him any instruction or give him any sense of your view of the decision in that conversation
TONY BURKE: Yeah, I was very clear with him. I made clear to Adrian Collette, who I've known for more than a decade. I said to him, "If you just, whichever - whatever you decide, I will support you and I will support Creative Australia." I was very clear in that.
SARAH FERGUSON: Clearly this story has a long way to run, but on both subjects. Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
TONY BURKE: Good to talk to you.